Ayodhya Verdict: An Atheist’s View

So, yesterday was some sort of a watershed day in Indian history. Yes, we finally solved the cosmic riddle of what came first, the egg or the chicken? And not only we solved a question of great importance, we also created a great compromise formula that in one stroke made a great broth of archaeology, mythology, philosophy, law and religion. This “juggad” genius is only possible in India, a great country with the mother of all contradictions.

The honorable High Court has found out conclusive evidence that Lord Rama was born in Ayodhya, precisely under the dome of the now razed Babri Masjid. The court has also decreed that since neither the defendants and the plaintiffs could produce enough evidence that ascertains the property rights; it is best to split up the land.

Logically, you may think that it would be a two way split, right? Wrong!

There is Lord Rama embodied by Nirmohi Akhada that makes a magical entry to make it a three way split of the pot. Unfortunately poor Allah has no idols, shape, size etc, so there you go- you pay for your own handicap, no extra shares!

Those who think that the court has been unfair by making it a three way split; let me point out that the court has been extremely considerate. Lord Rama has had more than a thousand incarnations or avatars and it was extremely intelligent of the court not to consider the thousand other claimants. To me it sounds a little unfair on those hapless Avatars who will have to wait for other controversy riddled structures to get a real estate on their own names.

From now on mythology is admissible in the Indian courts as conclusive evidence to otherwise hard to find solutions. After all we regularly use one court case to strengthen the argument for another and now we can argue based on mythology too. And now mythological characters have gotten a historical cast. The day is not far when someone can claim to be a descendant of Lord Rama and puts a claim forward. The defendant would not be able to disprove the family lineage, and the plaintiff would not be able to prove it either. So, more divisions are in the offing?

Another question is how far back should we look to put the wrongs to right? Now we have looked 500 years. If we consider that Indian courts can now admit 5-century throwbacks, we are in serious jeopardy. Now if tomorrow I purchase a piece of land anywhere in India, should I be looking at a 500-year’s timeline to get NOCs from all parties? Clearly having property tax receipts and documentation of modern India has not been a conclusive evidence of property ownership in this case.

And one lesson learned is do not allow anyone to keep their belongings at your home, lest their children and grandchildren sue your progeny that the property belongs to them. On a December night of 1949, some people put in Ram’s idol in the Masjid and see that got them the land in 60 years time. Now here is the proof that wait bears sweet fruits. I am throwing the umbrella a fitter had forgotten a few weeks back at my home. Why take risks?

All this brings me to the final question. Why is everybody so happy? Why is that everyone so glad that a great compromise formula has been found and now the much famed reconciliation process may begin? Has India really a changed from 1992? Has the young generation got over this mandir-masjid issue?

Everyone who wanted a grand Ram mandir is happy. So, the right wing of India is extremely happy. It’s a windfall. Now the resplendent temple is a reality! Everyone who has had any mistrust, preconceived alienation for the minority community is happy, for the judgment is a reflection of their own beliefs. Compromise in justice is a great excuse for not accepting the truth. We live in a state of denial about our constant suppression of the minorities- citing we are a democracy. The young generation may not have anything to do with mandir-masjid but the denial and the alienation is still present. This judgment appeals to that splendidly.

Yes India has become a matured democracy. See, there were no rioting, no feverish saber rattling, chest thumping and inflammatory comments. Lets congratulate each other and pat our own backs. I do not kid myself with this thought for I know if the verdict were against the right wing majority, the country would have been torn apart again. Peace will prevail as long as the majority is satisfied and that is exactly what has happened today.

Now the matter would go to the Supreme Court. What do I expect? Another judgment that fails to distinguish between mythology and history, archaeology and scenario fulfillment, evidence and majority belief? Don’t worry no mater what, we will remain a mature democracy, like we are today.

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117 Responses to “Ayodhya Verdict: An Atheist’s View”

  1. Ankur Chandra Says:

    I am not going to give my view regarding the verdict. But I have a conspiracy theory regarding why verdict eventually came in this case when there are millions of other unresolved cases which will never see light of the day.
    It is all about timing. Commonwealth Games have really brought a lot of shame to the country. And Media.. It was really enjoying tearing apart the Government for its absolutely high level of negligence in organizing the games. Some brilliant person at a very high level in the government would have thought.. what is it that would just deviate the attention of media? And bingo..as luck would have it.. Supreme court gets to decide on whether to postpone the Ayodhya verdict or not. If verdict is postponed to a date after common wealth games, media will continue its mud throwing party at common wealth games. So, this opportunity was immediately seized. Talks happened at the highest level and somebody asked Supreme Court “Well.. let the justice be done.. “. Supreme Court understands the gravity of this request and rules out that high court can not defer the justice. Every one is happy now. Coming few days could be well spent talking about Ayodhya yet again. Country is saved from media bashing of Common Wealth games. What a solution!

    • manasij Says:

      Ankur,

      you have used your intellectual horse power to obviously come to a great conclusion……
      you should join the numerous conspiracy theorists in US
      keep posting such things 🙂

      • Steve Hoge Says:

        I’m not sure the country has been saved from any further Commonwealth Games-inspired media bashing – or by exactly what cynical logic the Court’s decision might have precluded it.

        But it has certainly been saved from any further sectarian conflict-inspired media bashing. And I can’t help but think that, bad PR aside, the Court DID have the potential for violent reaction well in mind when it authored its Solomonic decision.

        • manasij Says:

          That is exactly what I stand against. We can not allow justice to be shunned because of a fear of a majority backlash. Long ago victors wrote the history, that was medieval times. If in modern times the history gets written by the majority, we have not progressed. The truth got ommitted and is now confused with myriad strands of mythology. This is unacceptable as an objective judgment. We are a long way from maturity and it pains me 😦

  2. Sadia Kazmi Says:

    I like your thoughts on the matter… !!! A very matured and in-depth analysis.. but at the end of the day… this is what everyone was wishing for deep in their hearts.. to avoid another 92.. 🙂 people as well as admistration was horrifed with 92 memories that’s why offices, shops, schools and colleges were closed and ever sensitive area was flooded with Police / RAF personnels…. though the verdict could not present a win-win situation for anyone, atleast it gave everyone a reason to smile, some relief, that there won’t be another return of the events of 92..!!

    So I welcome the verdict..!!!

    • manasij Says:

      Sadia,
      You said IT.
      The fear of a backlash meant that we throw objectivity to winds and come out with a judgment filled with holes from mythological fore-bearings.
      This is not acceptable in a mature secular democracy. And by pronouncing this judgment and accepting/welcoming it we are making a dangerous compromise with objectivity.
      Somehow, this fact is being neglected for short term gains.

  3. Rahul Says:

    you have expresed the views as expected ……..nothing surprising or shocking or informative…about the subject .:).

    May be I am getting saracatic not really …..not really

    Your article suggest the immense knowledge pool you have about the subject and your indepth understanding of the 10000 pages judgement

    Hats of to you for interpreting the judgement so soon 🙂

    With subtle humour you very cleverly obsucurred the facts and figures 🙂 what a great art you have mastered….keep going

    • manasij Says:

      Rahul,
      Thanks for your appreciations.
      I may not have struck a chord with many but what I write is exactly as what I felt about the verdict.
      No, I did not read the 8000 pages of the verdit but did read some 40 pages of the excerpts from the high court’s website
      Blogs are like buffet diners, what you dont like just dont load your plate with.
      I am sure there would be better blogs from me in the future 🙂
      But, your comments are always welcome. Please feel free to point me to any facts/figures that I may have misconstrued here.

  4. Arnab Says:

    Well, I am one of the people who rejoiced on hearing the verdict. It is exceptionally practical and can provide a platform going forward. To answer your question about the Babri Mashjid, while 6th December, 1992 can never be pardoned, it is time to move on. We need to stop dwelling on the past. The just-liberalized, religiously-polarized India of 1992 is long gone. The India of 2010 is entirely different in character & outlook. So, a mandir & a mashjid side by side seems to be the best solution. The judges have shown tremendous courage & foresight in delivering the verdict. Cheers!

    • manasij Says:

      I like the romance Arnab that the country has moved on……
      The reality is far from that.
      We just cut down 2000 people 7 years back in Gujarat.
      Divides on the line of religion is very much present and unmistakable.
      Any attempt to bridge that gap can not be done without acknowledging the truth.
      In search of truth this judgment has taken the help of mythology, which is unacceptable.

      • Arnab Says:

        The court did not say that Ram was born here, only that the Hindus believe so (except Justice Aggarwal, who was in a minority). Also they clearly acknowledge that the Ram idol was placed in 1949. In any case, this was a title suit, not an inquisition on the events of 1992. And, to correct your statement, we did not cut down any people in Gujarat, Narendra Modi & his gang of politicians did. I think that religious division is a sentiment used only for political gains and is not popular amongst the majority of Indians. It is commendable that the judges delivered the verdict that they did and did not take the easy way out (declaring any one side the winner). Being seasoned judges, they must have known that they would be accused of over-reaching, exceeding their brief or acting like a panchayat.

        • manasij Says:

          Arnab,
          the fact that we have used the mythology as an evidence exponent is unmistakable in this judgment. this is unacceptable.
          the fact that if we cower against the fear of a majority backlash and do not tell the truth, is a mockery of justice system. we did just that here.
          the compromise formula is an escapism which seems to be celebrated widely today. tread 500 back and property holding’s objectivity is bound to get blurred.
          this is a deal brokered with all the wrong ingredients- mythology, fear of a backlash and loss of objectivity.

  5. Rahul Says:

    1) Lord Rama has had more than a thousand incarnations or avatars and it was extremely intelligent of the court not to consider the thousand other claimants…….

    This is just a piece of your imagination to support your view …as a matter of fact there were total 30 claimants in this case

    did you went through the ASI report which is the basis for the judgement …the digging was videographed daily and 29 muslims labourers were included so that no party can complaint for being biased toward any community …….and all the finding from the digging were shown to 30 claimants everyday at the end of digging ………..

    This report from ASI is used as a strong reference ….it was not just the mythology only that court has taken in account but you failed to acknowledge that ..which makes the blog quite funny 🙂 i enjoyed reading it:) …….

    You said “Compromise in justice is a great excuse for not accepting the truth” but is it a final verdict?…. Supreme court is still open ….so the verdict is not final or imposed as a law ..so how is justice compromised ….

    you wrote …
    Another question is how far back should we look to put the wrongs to right? Now we have looked 500 years. If we consider that Indian courts can now admit 5-century throwbacks, we are in serious jeopardy….

    I don’t see anythg done to put wrong to right…you are againing making a wrong interpretation …….if the issue is 400-500yrs old you need to consider the facts …you cannot skip them just to suit your convience ………..

    you wrote …
    We live in a state of denial about our constant suppression of the minorities- citing we are a democracy

    this is again nothing to do with the judgement …2 different threads ………..

    No hard feelings towards you so please don’t ….take it too seriously may be i felt you are not well informed about the issue as i am following it since last 19yrs 🙂 cheers

    • manasij Says:

      Rahul,
      I have been following the case for the same duration as you are.
      To respond to your objections:
      1. ASI Report: questioned by numerous historians on the following grounds
      a) the major inscription based on which the inference was drawn came from a lime stone oriented clay design which came to India no earlier than 1000 AD with the first persian impact
      b) the ASI report DOES not say conclusively that there was mandir. It makes comments about “interesting” and “significant” findings which are not corroborated with evidence later on in the report
      c) the ASI did not submit the clay pieces for a radio isotope dating which could have ascertained from which period they belonged, so we never know how old they were
      2. The same case was rejected in 1855 on grounds of being too old for a contest. Property disputes can not predate the start of property demarcation based on property bearers such as a document. Th reason these cases would have absurd results is because you can not ascertain with correctness beyond a point in history from where the documented history is missing. It is not my convenience that we are talking, it is about objective analysis of a rightful ownership.
      3. The state of denial and the suppression is in context of the argument that young India has moved on.
      4. The remark on Lord Rama’s incarnation was a satirical additive, not an argument.

  6. Jishnu Says:

    Manasij,

    I am not a believer in God’s existense. I do not opine that the verdict is the best possible solution to the issue.

    But one thing I believe is that when it is a question of religious sentiment, usual proofs, such as property tax (although I do not think anybody would claim to have the same for that ‘disputed’ land), NOC do not matter.

    I cannot blame the Court if they have tried to mitigate the issue rather than infuriating certain communities with a ‘logical’ solution. Our democracy is still not that matured, at least you cannot be so sure!

    However, as I said there could have been better ways to mitigate the issue; I think paving the way to use the land for some ‘communal harmony’ kind of practice (may be a museum) and allocating some other land to all three parties elsewhere would have been a better solution.

    • manasij Says:

      Jishnu,
      Justice can not prevail without truth. I can not rejoice any other form of judgment other than an objective true judgment. Justice can not be subject to approval from power groups. If we do that we are no better than what a medieval justice system was. So, this escapist judgment is not acceptable. We have gone far enough (500 yrs) that obliterates any objective notion of property ownership. To have the place open for a “communal harmoy” type monument is not a solution but an escapism from reality. Truth is hard and it has to be spoken if we really aspire to be a mature state.

      • Jishnu Says:

        Manasij,

        I agree that the a lawful justice might not have been served in this case.

        But is our society ready for the justice? A lawful justice causing a riot and in turn killing 2000 more would have been a real justice? Sometimes escaping from the truth is unavoidable.

        What I want is to close the Ayodhya chapter once and for all; to uproot it from the agenda of religious fundamentalists of all communities. We should not revive it at any cost.

        • manasij Says:

          Yes, I want the chapter closed too…..
          But compromising on justice is a dangerous thing. I am sure if the state had the will all violence can be stopped. To bow to the whims of a majority sentiment is not justice and is in no way a signal to the troublemongers like the Sangh Parivar and the BJP that they can get away with horrific crimes like these. This may be taken as a passive agreement to their outlandish ambitions of turning this wonderfully diverse country into sectarian state. Above all, the court’s own persona takes a serious body blow. In all, it is too much a price to pay!

  7. Rahul Says:

    hey mansij

    1) ….what makes you think it is just a property issue only ….u r citing example of 1855 .. and making the interpretation of verdict just a simple property issue b/w2 parties …..in 1855 were we a democartic country at that time?

    Can you also explain how are propety issues are resolved in the courts …..if you donot use the documents what kind of evidences you think should be produced to solve these highly complex issues…may be we can know where our law of land lacks?

    also did both parties failed to produce the evidences which you think were neccessary ….for the verdict (read …not final one )….and judges were so absent minded that they did not noticed …….it was just you were able to notice it quite intellegently ??

    2)you say… The state of denial and the suppression is in context of the argument that young India has moved on.
    Are you not deviating from the subject (verdict) which you question in your blog and correctness of the judgement to support your views ?

    3) you say “The remark on Lord Rama’s incarnation was a satirical additive, not an argument”

    Are you not hurting the sentiments of million hindus just to prove your point …..Also what you say is not even clear to you:)…you are questioning somthing for which you fail to understand the complexity

    4) Comming to questioning ASI report i said it is one of the important references that court used.As as a matter of fact ….all the 3 judges were totally convinced that Lord ram birth place was same as stated ….
    Reports can be questioned by any argument ….but no one has challenged it any court ….

    Even if you think the ASI report is …not authentic ..can you suggest what is more clever way of solving the issue

    • manasij Says:

      Rahul,
      Liked the points you raised. My swipe at the answers:

      1. going down 500 years on any property mater in any part of the world would get you an amorphous picture. We went just too far into the past to get any conclusive picture. The quest for finding the owner through the ages was doomed right from the word go. We can only go back in time till a point that gives us an objective solution.

      2. No deviation at all. The judgment is welcomed by many and I need to put a reason around it. It could be hatred for the other community, fear of backlash, lets get over it somehow typed escapism or an apathy or alienation based response and I though to touch on it to reason the welcome the judgment is getting

      3. India is a free country with freedom of expression. If anyone thinks my comments are hurtful to a community, please feel free to take it to judiciary. And hey, what did I say about a blog being like a buffet party?

      4. The ASI report is highly controversial. Most of the prominent historians have rejected which casts a high aspersion on its authenticity.

  8. Gaurav Nigam Says:

    Hi Manasij,

    Even before digging into the content of the blog, I’ve a problem with the subject line “An Atheist’s View”. How is it an atheist view and why do want to mention it as heading of this blog?

    • manasij Says:

      Gauravm
      Why not read the cintent and then put an opinion?
      Books should not be judged by the covers, right?

      • Gaurav Nigam Says:

        Well, at no point I wrote that I didn’t read the content. I read the complete blog as well following the comment threads as well. I have questions in content but even before those, I have problem with subject line. Sure, books should not be judged by the covers, but some times covers/posters are made controversial so that movie can have a good opening. rite?

        • manasij Says:

          Gaurav,
          The topic suggests very clearly what does the whole incident looks from a neutral standpoint an not colored by any religious prism.
          Hope this clarifies the title.

          • Gaurav Nigam Says:

            Manasij,

            You could have written the blog without this as subject. So, do you want that only atheist should read it or you want to tell junta that you are an atheist?

            Last, it is too less to clarify the title of the blog, infact it didnt.

            • Gaurav Nigam Says:

              Manasij,

              This subject line would have made more sense if you have copied the content from some other source, or some one would have sent it to you to publish it in your blog. Since it donot suffice either, it proves more that you want to do an ad rather you really want to make some sensible point.

              I would have really appreciated if you could have posted something on CWG corruption, which I could have understood as an atheist view point.

              Regards.

  9. Rahul Says:

    1) IF ASI report is controversial why don’t you take to court ….you are so convinced about it …..also you fail to suggest what should be the alternative ………

    2) Fear of backlash was more to the government than to the judicairy ..judicairy in india is not to appease any community and get favours espically from minorities …..the very fact 3 judges included mr khan was to get a fair and neutral judgement …….did this thought even …crossed your mind …………………………….so it goverment ‘s fear not minorties ….
    3)Aodyha issue is not a property dispute please try to understand ……you cannot mask it ……..also you did not pointed the evidences which both parties failed to produce ……. you deviated from facts as expected ….we like this deviation and we all are enjoying it
    throughly

    4) hopefully your next blog will suggest some sensible solution and expecting it to be more factual in nature……Gud nite we can continue 2morrow

    cheers

    RAHUL

    • manasij Says:

      1. The ASI report has been widely condemned by historians. I am a blogger and not a litigant and therefore I would not take it to courts. The search if it was Lord Ram’s birthplace warrants us to know a few things. First, when was Lord Ram born. Then when we excavate the ruins, you are supposed to use the excavated elements for a radio isotope dating which can confirm that the elements are that ancient. This is what was done for Egyptian ruins. Here, the ASI has unraveled a few inscription bearing chunks which when translated say “Noble are the family where such men are born”. No other details. Plus the inscription bearing chunks were lime mortar constructs, which came to India with the early Islamic rulers in early 1000 AD. Based on such many other facts, the ASI report was trashed by almost all noted historians of India. Also the ASI report does not conclusively arrive at a verdict that a Ram temple existed, it makes comments as “interesting findings and significant findings” but never the whole statement that a temple by the name if Lord Rama did exist. The alternative is to use all the excavated artifacts submitted for a full scale forensic research for their authenticity and time period analysis. Without a scientific corroboration, this is subject to all sorts of interpretations which is surely not objective enough.

      2 and 3. The verdict uses faith and mythology as evidence exponents. This is not acceptable. The objectivity of the law is decimated. The fact that a tread back to 500 years would anyway make property holding impossible to prove has made this strange 3 way split. This was a title suit, a legal property dispute and we made a mess by looking too far back in time. Objective judgment can only look that far and beyond which the defendants (sunni waqf board) had enough modern India’s apparatus (such as tax chalans etc) to prove the case in their favor. Instead, fearing a backlash and trying to appease the majoritarian perspective, we have this grotesque judgment.

      4. hopefully my next blog would be upto our liking. Keep reading and keep dropping in with your comments. Thats what makes us a free country- all views welcome.

      • Rahul Says:

        Hey Mansij

        Just to tell you one more fact about the trial:

        The ASI reports was signed by both parties only then it was used as an evidence by the court otherwise court could not used if any party had any objection i don’t know why kept taking about historians …only and did not mentioned about this
        this is standard legal practice ……

        hopefully you must be knowing it 🙂 as you where things lacked
        in the court

        also as u said “taking to u court “is no way of justifying your views as u make fun of alllah too in your blog which is not justified …..even if u think u a atheist…..

        Also if we were to take you to court ………..we will make sure that you can’t write any blogs even in your imagination forget other place in this entire globe …(think about it ….) and not allowing you to make fun of both muslims and hindus …..don’t worry this one view ……………..nothing serious about it

        cheers
        will wait for ur next blog
        but one request keep blog in the context of subject don’t open many threads as you do …for justifying your view
        and also acknowledge if some one is right in his/her view don’t keep overriding them to give ur implementation(method/view overriding )

  10. Ashish Says:

    I have gone through the blog and comments too

    Actually don’t want to go into this argument on this politically created issue . I am not able to understand what this issue is and is it even worth discussing.. India has been going through lot of other problems and issues which need immediate attention. …why we are again and again giving irrelevant issues a top priority.

    these politicians have their cream and making all stupid things an issue just for their benefit.

    Questions for everyone – tell me honestly how will this change a common men life.. ki waha Mandir ho ya Masjid.. and it should not matter to anyone “Atheist” or otherwise.

    We all can put in our comments, now answer me – How many of us regularly visit temples or Masjid..

    I believe God is One.. so why we have divided this into “Ram” or “Alha”. if we believe in god that should not make any difference be it a mandir or masjid..

    Sorry, if I have hurt anyone’s feelings , but just sit back and give a thought on some important issues that we are facing.. believe me you will say that this issue cannot be even termed as an issue.. its just that it has been created for the benefit of political parties so that a common men cannot focus on the areas that really need focus..

    • Gaurav Nigam Says:

      Ashish,

      I am a Hindu and don’t have any problems for being called as hindu. But I’m more concerned about humanity. There are better problems to be addressed like poverty, illiteracy, hunger, unemployment, corruption etc. But, times I’m surprised to see that so called ATHEIST are more interested in writing blogs about some communal issues rather than any of those problems mentioned above. Calling your self as atheist is a good way of telling public that you are DIFFERENT, as if doing an ad of Maggi tomato sauce. Did any one advocated of building school or a hospital at that place? No…
      The reason why I am satisfied with the verdict is that I didn’t saw any replays of ’92. THANK GOD!

      • manasij Says:

        Gaurav,
        Thanks for your comments, though they are largely irrelevant and convoluted.
        Your personal attacks on “so called Atheism” is pretty ludicrous. I am an Atheist, someone who does not believe in the existence of god and does not follow any religion. There is nothing “so called” about it. This is not to look different. This is a belief system just as Hinduism or Christianity is.
        The blog title has generated a lot of dust from your comments. So here is my take on it. The blog title suggests very clearly that the writing is from an Atheist’s point of view which is neither the majoritarian Hindu or minoritarian Muslim. I am voicing my views from a non-religious detached standpoint. I do not need to corroborate this is in the blog as I would expect intelligent readers to construe that by the virtue of the title itself and then find the same resonated through the blog’s body. If you failed to notice it, then it is quite unfortunate.
        This judgment is a pathetic one. A judgment that takes the refuge of faith and mythology to concoct a majority pleasing decision.
        You want a hospital/school? Build a grand hospital/school elsewhere. Lets solve the problem and not escape from it.
        The problem was whose land is it anyway? The honorable court has made a mess of it by going back 500 years which anyway would make any property holding case amorphous in any part of the world, let alone India.
        Then the court has used the matters of faith and mythology to come up with a verdict that pleases the majority and therefore nips in the bud for any violent majoritarian reaction. Is this justice? Surely not.
        Are we mature? No way. Have we moved on? Yes we have, only to go backwards.

        • Gaurav Nigam Says:

          Manasij,

          Thanks for explaining atheism ofcource I didn’t knew what atheism is :). The only take away from your blog or comments are few good words which would help improve my vocabulary rest is need not to say…My views on some of the points you stated above:

          1. As you said:”Atheism is a belief system just as Hinduism or Christianity is.”
          So, you want to build one more belief system to complicated already existing communal/secular system in this world. Great going…some day you will have bunch of your own followers worshiping you as almighty.

          2. As you said: “The blog title has generated a lot of dust from your comments.”
          You are still not able to answer my question: do you want that only atheist should read it or you want to tell junta that you are an atheist?
          Also, what have written in forms as your religion? Hindu or atheist…

          3. As you said: “This judgment is a pathetic one.”
          So whats the solution you propose? How would you like to resolve it. With a country with mere 4 lacs of army and few lacs of police, para-military forces, home guards, NCC you want to play with the sentiments of 100crore people. If you want to maintain peace in such a large country you need to make some prudent decisions, which could attack psyche of masses and refrain them from making any outrageous actions. Its good to see there were no killings as of now compared to what happened in ’92 or godhra.

          4. As you said: “You want a hospital/school? Build a grand hospital/school elsewhere”
          Yes, I would like to build hospital and school. I think you have never been to that place nor aware of any local problems. My college was mere 80kms from Faizabad also, I stayed inside PGI campus Lucknow and seen number of patient coming there from eastern UP and bihar. Situation worsen when you see when they have to return back or go else where in country due to non-availabilty of beds in multispeciality hospitals and loose their life. Neither any religion nor your so called atheism will advocate people dying this way. Need not so say how badly we need some good schools/universities in this country. What an unthoughtful comment from you side.

          5. As you said: “Have we moved on? Yes we have, only to go backwards.”
          Earlier i used calculator now I use computer.Not me but many. Infact I can quote few more…I moved forward but exactly don’t know where have you moved.

          Anyways, these were my thoughts. So no hard feelings please.

          Regards

          • manasij Says:

            1. Atheism is a lack of belief. So no question od staring a new belief system based on any one person

            2. my blog is for everyone.

            3. Rightly pointed out: this judgment is made in a fear of majority backlash

            4. irrelevant

            5. no contest

            • Gaurav Nigam Says:

              1. Many religions have started with similar line of thoughts as different panths other than existing religions. So might be this bunch of so called atheist form their own religion some day.

              2. Still not answered my questions.

              3. No where I said decision was made in favor of majority religious group, rather it was made in favor of Indian republic. You have constantly failed to understand my thought as well as verdict.

              4. May be people dying with disease is irrelevant to you. But, atleast not for me and for many.

              5. Well, you are in continuous habbit of understanding replies as contest rather than a discussion. That is why most of you replies are obsessed as you need to win some contest. My dear please be more thoughtful.

              • manasij Says:

                no contest means, I agree 🙂
                so not sure what did you mean in point 5 here at all

              • Gaurav Nigam Says:

                @Manasij,

                5. Well, not getting into intricacies what you replied, as I can’t understand what you wrote. But, tell you the truth that in ’92 I always favored to demolish masajid to build temple without understanding the aftermath and consequences of it. But, over the period of 18yrs I realized that it is neither in favor of humanity nor development of this country. Not me but many of my hindu, muslim and friends from other community as well feel the same way. That is how we have collectively moved forward. But not sure about you…

    • manasij Says:

      Ashish,
      This is a very pertinent issue for a country which is secular and democratic and which is led by the rule of the law.
      I am sure there are many important issues to be addressed in our country but this is surely one of them.
      We as a secular country have to uphold equal treatment of all religions by law.
      As a country which is led by the rule of the law, there is no disambiguation possible of objectivity of the law.
      In this judgment, we have overlooked the both tenets mentioned above.
      The court had muddled up on taking mythology as evidence. Majority backlash fear as a centrepiece of a brokered reconciliation.
      This is an important issue that has to be treated with the due importance for it embodies how the secular democratic lawful governing of this country.

  11. figaar Says:

    I think it is very difficult to make this kind of judgment just by considering the facts, proofs etc, they have to consider the life of the common people (even if they might not have considered that in this case, they might have got influenced by some or other party) this is a “SMART” judgment. I am only happy with the fact that there is no killing, hope it will remain same. Being an atheist, I give damn to any lord, allah, nirmohi etc or any of their supporters.

    • manasij Says:

      Sumit,
      yes we atheists do not care about the religion etc. But we want the rule of the land to prevail over fanatic elements. don’t we?
      to me this majoritrian judgment that brings faith and mythology as proofs for corroboration of the verdict is not acceptable.

  12. abhiksrivastava Says:

    I don’t want to go in the deep discussion on the verdict.

    But before having your opinion about honorable court, Please read the complete summary of the judgment and also please read what archeologist says.

    http://allahabadhighcourt.in/gist1.pdf
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_of_Ayodhya

    No where it is written that there was a place found where Lord Rama was born in Ayodhya. Everywhere it is mentioned that

    “it was treated/believed by Hindus that some where in a very large area of which premises in dispute is a very small part birth place of Lord Ram was situated” .

    Some other points are also contradictory.

    • manasij Says:

      Abhishek,
      I have read all the downloadable gist files from the high court judgment. Thanks for sharing the link anyway.
      The one that you have shared is an incomplete gist. The complete gist is a 40 pager which I have gone through.
      Sorry to disappoint but the wikipedia is not an authentic source so I would not worry about it much.

      By upholding a “faith” that Hindus believe it was the birthplace of Lord Rama, the court has put a judicial finality on where the birthplace was.
      This mythology and faith oriented judgment is not acceptable as an objective judgment.

      Please feel free to point out which other points have I contradicted in the blog 🙂

      • abhiksrivastava Says:

        I have just share a small link for summary “given by Hon’ble Mr Justice S U Khan”

        Also i just want to update you the actual judgment copy is not 40 pager.

        You can get it all gits from http://rjbm.nic.in/ 🙂

        Regarding Wikipedia i agree with you but it’s also just sharing a link

        Hon’ble High court mentioned the same.

        It’s not completely about myths manasij. Satyajjeet’s link can enlight you more.

        • manasij Says:

          Thanks for sharing the link again…..
          There are more verdict related material available BTW.

          Anyway, unless I get views from authentic sources such as the one you put down, I ignore the fringe websites.
          There are many such inflammatory right wing websites with their jingoistic agendas which I do not endorse and can not use to form my opinions.
          Satyajeet’s link is therefore of no real meaning.
          And then again, I am sure you read his totalitarian view of Bharat and how “they” (read Muslims) would never come to power.
          Do you think such websites with such views can be enlightening?

      • abhiksrivastava Says:

        As i mentioned in my first comment “I don’t want to go in the deep discussion on the verdict.” :). This is my last comment.

        It totally depends on your thinking and understanding about wrong or right. From the first statement you have started thinking that it was completely on myths. and that’s not true.

        If ASI mentioned that they have found some structure belongs to Hindu, that means the place was occupied by Hindus then Babri Masjid came in existence and then riot. 🙂

        I am not trying to prove you wrong but as you mentioned about belongings Hindu’s also can say that the place belongs to him and forcefully occupied to prepare Babri Masjid.

        That’s my view

        • manasij Says:

          The ASI report has been widely condemned by historians. The search if it was Lord Ram’s birthplace warrants us to know a few things. First, when was Lord Ram born. Then when we excavate the ruins, you are supposed to use the excavated elements for a radio isotope dating which can confirm that the elements are that ancient. This is what was done for Egyptian ruins. Here, the ASI has unraveled a few inscription bearing chunks which when translated say “Noble are the family where such men are born”. No other details. Plus the inscription bearing chunks were lime mortar constructs, which came to India with the early Islamic rulers in early 1000 AD. Based on such many other facts, the ASI report was trashed by almost all noted historians of India. Also the ASI report does not conclusively arrive at a verdict that a Ram temple existed, it makes comments as “interesting findings and significant findings” but never the whole statement that a temple by the name if Lord Rama did exist. The alternative is to use all the excavated artifacts submitted for a full scale forensic research for their authenticity and time period analysis. Without a scientific corroboration, this is subject to all sorts of interpretations which is surely not objective enough.

          The fringe websites claiming things without the backing of any historian is not a permissible evidence in the regards.

  13. Satyajeet Shukla Says:

    http://www.ayodhya.com/ayotemplet.jsp?sno=3

    I think the following link may enlighten your already burdened soul. Oops you are an atheist. Anyways Hindu’s never gave up there claim on the site during last 500 years.
    If you are more Intelligent then ASI then there is no argument, but if ASI report is to be accepted, then there was a temple which was destroyed and a mosque like structure was built by Mir Banki.

    Jai Ram Ji Ki.

    • manasij Says:

      Satyajeet,

      The weblink you have given is not from any noted historian/archaeologists so I can not vouch for its correctness or objectivity. The inernet is awash with all sorts of stuff. Just because a website claims that they can increase an adult’s height, I do not believe it.

      Anyway,
      Here is my take on ASI;s much famed report.

      The ASI report has been widely condemned by historians. The search if it was Lord Ram’s birthplace warrants us to know a few things. First, when was Lord Ram born. Then when we excavate the ruins, you are supposed to use the excavated elements for a radio isotope dating which can confirm that the elements are that ancient. This is what was done for Egyptian ruins. Here, the ASI has unraveled a few inscription bearing chunks which when translated say “Noble are the family where such men are born”. No other details. Plus the inscription bearing chunks were lime mortar constructs, which came to India with the early Islamic rulers in early 1000 AD. Based on such many other facts, the ASI report was trashed by almost all noted historians of India. Also the ASI report does not conclusively arrive at a verdict that a Ram temple existed, it makes comments as “interesting findings and significant findings” but never the whole statement that a temple by the name if Lord Rama did exist. The alternative is to use all the excavated artifacts submitted for a full scale forensic research for their authenticity and time period analysis. Without a scientific corroboration, this is subject to all sorts of interpretations which is surely not objective enough.

  14. Satyajeet Shukla Says:

    I think partition of India was the most horrific episode in the recent history, not even the Babri demolition. You may score some Brownies from the muslims, But My dear Mansij, They will be the first to hunt you down, if they ever will come to power in Bharat. They had this peculiar anathema towards Atheists. Allah’s wrath will surely burn you in hell [;)].

    I respect your atheism.

    Jai Ram Ji Ki.

    • manasij Says:

      Satyajeet,

      Thanks for openly showing your allegiance.
      The statements: “They will be the first to hunt you down” and “they ever will come to power in Bharat” clearly suggest where you are coming from.
      This is India and not Bharat. However you may fantasize with the idea, this is not a theocratic state. We are a secular democracy.
      Please revisit Indian constitution to gain this clear insight.
      Hindu, Muslim or Atheist, you have to respect Indian constitution and our secular fabric.
      This jingoistic approach is NOT acceptable. This is why the judgment had to please the right wing otherwise the country would have been torn apart.

  15. suhas Says:

    hello,
    i have gone though your write-up on the verdict of Ayodhya dispute and the reactions that followed including your replies.am an avid reader of your articles on various topics.But the present one seems to have struck the rt.chord.i thank you for coming out with a matured opinion at this sensitive issue.to my mind the verdict has eclipsed facts over faiths;myths overruled history;the court depended upon the ASI findings that are largely emperical;majority’s belief has been taken into consederation;question of criminal offense of Babri Masjid demolition led by fundamentalists has been ignored.keep up your spirit.love. suhas

  16. Satyajeet Shukla Says:

    Dear Mansij,

    There was a temple, it was destroyed by the Muslim Invaders, and a mosque like structure was built over it. During the last 500 years, the Hindu community never gave up there claims on the land. Where is the need to prove that Ram was really born over there.

    It was an unjust occupation of the Hindu Religious site, the Hindu community never gave up there claims on the land and we have every right to claim it, even after 500 years.

    Read the constitution, It says India that is Bharat. Now Bharat is a sovereign, socialist, secular, democratic republic.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India

    We are sitting on a time bonb and with the current rate of Muslim population growth rate, according to some conservative estimates they may come to majority by 2050. As an atheist you can chill-out till then or plan to migrate to US/UK or Australia.

    Jai Ram Ji Ki.

    • manasij Says:

      there was a temple or not has not been conclusively proven by the historians so far.
      even if we agree that there was a temple and it was razed by Babar’s henchmen 500 years ago that does not mean we need to correct it in 21st century.
      the same logic would call for restoration of all buddhist gompas the hindu rulers have ravaged all these years in the distant past.
      this extreme right wing ideology is surely not progressive for you want to go back and avenge for 500 year old doings when there was no law of the land, no constitution, no secularism, no democracy and no administrative code of conduct!

      I am not sure what was your mathematics score but I was pretty good at maths myself. Even if I assume that mulims are multiplying at 3 times the rate at which hindus are (which is surely incorrect), at the present population, it would take 600 years for and equality of population to be achieved. Do a back of the paper calculation, it is elementary compound interest equation. if you need further help, mail me I will be happy to share the calculation with you!

      And to talk about whose country is this, the muslims or the hindus or the atheists- let me point out we are a secular democracy. So I am staying right here no matter what.

  17. Satyajeet Shukla Says:

    You are talking about some Noted Historians, can you name a few? Let me see to which side of the political spectrum the loyalty of these so called noted Historians belongs. It is not right to dismiss the other side with just a jibe. We must be committed to truth and only truth.

    Have you heard about the term Holocaust denial; it’s quite popular in west, as if it never happened. There are people now saying Bush sent those planes to WTC. In-fact there was no WTC. 3000 people never died, they never existed.
    Hopefully you are not among these.

    Crazy twisted logic.

    Jai Ram Ji Ki

    • manasij Says:

      see arnab’s reply below.
      he has mentioned the names and the facts neatly.

      • Satyajeet Shukla Says:

        So I have to accept Irfan Habeebs argument. Is he a noted Historian? Huh .. I know his loyalty. Its just your word against mine. I consider Sri Sita Ram Goyal as a noted Historian. Just read his books and find out the pictorial depiction of, what really happened during those times, Including proofs from Babar Nama. I do not think, that I need to accept, What these Marxist and Semi-Marxist Historians of JNU say. How the Gory part of the Indian History was masked by these Marxist Historians?

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irfan_Habib

        Lets suppose Babri structure was built using Lime stone and other stuff, How does it prove that there was no temple? Its just that, they broke the temple and constructed that structure using whatever technology and stuff available with them.

        Jai Ram Ji Ki.

        • Arnab Says:

          1. You need to stop quoting Wikipedia as it is not a authorized source of facts.
          2. That’s just the point. When you go back 500 years and into mythology, it is your word against mine. That’s why the court should have stuck to the facts & documents available.
          3. The existence of the temple can neither be proved, nor disproved. So why go into it? What can definitely be proved is that there was a mosque. We all saw it destroyed by hooligans, didn’t we?

          • Satyajeet Shukla Says:

            Dear Arnab,

            It was not a mosque, and no Muslim used to offer his prayer over there. Yes its well beyond doubt that there was a temple over there.

            Wiki is not authorized….., as if you are authorized to make false claims. I have seen it … Anyways Bharat Ganrajya is one of the official names of Bharat. Go and refer constitution.

            I do not talk in thin air.

            Buddy, come out of the self-righteous cocoon, you may be able to see a different world.

            Court has definitely stuck to the facts. Anyways you and your friends can shout at full throttle, but the fact will remain.

            Jai Ram Ji Ki.

  18. Satyajeet Shukla Says:

    There population is 9 times in last 60 years or so. from 2 crores to 18 crores. Surely they can out number us in next 50 Years. With the falling Hindu rate of growth, it shall not take much time for them catch up.

    Hindu population had grown to 90 Crores from 33 crores in last 60 years. In next 20 years, we will be seeing a negative population growth among Hindu’s. (Let me say by next generation). Thanks to the middle class which believes in SINK / DINK philosophy.

    I think you can also check your mathematics. Human population doesn’t follow just mathematics. There are countries like Russia which has a negative population growth. It takes just one generation to wipe out the entire race or population.

    Jai Ram Ji Ki.

  19. Arnab Says:

    I woke up sometime back to find 46 replies to this blog in my inbox. WTF is going on! You seem to have stepped on quite a few people’s toes here :D. Anyway, after going through the all the replies, here are a few pointers that are intended to serve as food for thought, NOT continue the debate:
    1. The reactions to this blog has already shown why we need closure on this subject. The verdict will go a long way towards that. So, in my books, this is a good verdict.
    2. For those who seem to ridicule atheists, I would like to quote Ayn Rand – “Ask yourself whether the dream of heaven and greatness should be waiting for us in our graves – or whether it should be ours here and now and on this earth.” If there has to be a kingdom of heaven (or hell if you want), and I firmly believe there has to be, it will be here on this earth and not some vague place after I die. Atheism is a system which works towards this goal while religions only promise you utopia after death, which is of no use to me.
    3. For those who seem to be against Muslims, I have numerous friends who are Muslims are they are far better persons that some piously religious Hindus I know. In fact, some of the most beautiful women I know are Muslims, and that is reason enough to like Muslims :D. But seriously, this polarization between Hindus & Muslims have been encouraged & exploited by numerous “leaders” since the British era and it is unfortunate that we are still gullible enough to fall for it.
    4. The official name of the country we reside in, is neither Bharat nor India, but “the Republic of India”. As such, I define my identity as first Human and second Indian. Caste, religion & race do not come into it and it should be that way for every citizen of the sovereign, socialist, secular, democratic Republic of India. Else, you lose the right to call yourself an Indian.
    5. It is true that the ASI report is unconvincing & has been widely criticized by noted historians. Eminent historian Irfan Habib, in a detailed critique of the ASI report, had pointed out that it did not mention that lime-surkhi could not have been part of an earlier Hindu temple because such mortar came with the Muslims. Historian T P Verma had told the Lucknow bench that he tried to locate the inscription in Lucknow museum but was unable to do so. The said inscription — first mentioned in 1889 by A Fuhrer in ‘Sharqi Architecture of Jaunpur’ and later by Hans Bakker in 1986 in ‘Ayodhya’ — had close resemblance to the one flaunted by VHP. Both are of sandstone and broken in two parts, the slit starting near the middle of the top, then running rather diagonally to the bottom right. Both have twenty lines. Even in terms of content, there are similarities. Its translation submitted by VHP in the HC said the disputed site was the birthplace of Ram. But K V Ramesh, former director (epigraphy), ASI, translated the inscription simply as: “Noble was that very family (of the donor) which was the birthplace (janmabhoomi) of honour.” The official said the translation would lend credence to the theory that the inscription was planted.
    6. I really don’t care whether a temple, mosque, shopping mall, school, hospital or brothel comes up on the site as long as there is a stop to the violence. So, a temple & a mosque side by side seems to be the best solution.
    Cheers!

    • manasij Says:

      thanks for putting the names and facts of the noted historian’s views on the much famed ASI report. I had read the same stuff but could not gather it online to put them on the replies. thanks for watching my back here 🙂
      i still do not want to just be content with the logic that there was no bloodshed and therefore the judgment was a great one.
      i dedicated one paragraph for why i think this judgment, with all its BS about muddling mythology and faith with justice, received so many laurels from every corner. The responses in this blog post is a reflection of the same that I had written and I feel we are flirting with a parochial escapism which in the long run would be a defeatist idiom for a country’s secular democratic and lawful fabric.
      lets face the truth as it is and when we can do that i will be confident to call ourselves a mature democracy

  20. Satyajeet Shukla Says:

    Satyajeet’s link is therefore of no real meaning.
    [blue]
    At-least it highlights the continuous Hindu struggle to acquire the disputed site. If you will dismiss it, then its your wish.

    Its quite amusing, your friends talks about opening brothel over there and you find them to be quite logical. Anyways enjoy the company of such friends.

    After replying to you, I just met a Bangladeshi, in perth. As a rare commodity, he is a Hindu. Anyways after listening to him, my heart really cried for there condition over there. Anyways I am a jingoist who thinks about Hindu’s. I am watching Veer Zara, Hope the elusive love will triumph.

    Jai Ram Ji ki.

    • Arnab Says:

      Dear Satyajit,

      No offense to you but I doubt if you have ever heard about 2 words in the Oxford English Dictionary – “sarcasm” & “humour”. And don’t dismiss the idea of the brothel lightly my friend, every one will go, no one will make a hue and cry (in public) and everyone will be happy! 😀 😀
      Anyway, the fact that you chose to highlight only that single word in my entire comment goes to show that you are not interested in truth, justice, logic or peace. You only read what you want to and ignore the rest. My only question to you is are you a human first, or an Indian, or a Hindu? As I had written earlier, I define my identity as first Human and second Indian. Caste, religion & race do not come into it and it should be that way for every citizen of the sovereign, socialist, secular, democratic Republic of India. Else, you lose the right to call yourself an Indian.

      • Satyajeet Shukla Says:

        Can I use a similar sarcasm for your dear one’s that you hold close to your heart? believe me I am really good at that.

        Jai Ram Ji Ki.

      • Gaurav Nigam Says:

        Dear Arnab,

        Thats what exactly I mean to say. Firstly we human being, than an Indian afterwards belongs to what ever religion or cast. You quoted some quote of (atheism)…, which has nothing to do with the context. If the title of the blog wouldn’t have included “Atheist’s View” then it could have made more sense. You failed to read what I wrote and made your comment. Rather than opening a brothel(which only you will enjoy) why not to open a pub there… you must have heard a famous poetry by Harivansh Rai Bachhan(father of Amitabh Bachhan) a known poet than some Ayn Rand atleast in REPUBLIC OF INDIA…

        Excerpt from Madhushala…

        “मुसलमान औ’ हिन्दू है दो, एक, मगर, उनका प्याला,एक, मगर, उनका मदिरालय, एक, मगर, उनकी हाला,दोनों रहते एक न जब तक मस्जिद मन्दिर में जाते,बैर बढ़ाते मस्जिद मन्दिर मेल कराती मधुशाला”

        So cheers!

        • Arnab Says:

          @ Gaurav: Love the poem & keep listening to the recitation by Manna Dey. A pub is a very good idea, may be that will make me visit the place at last. 😀
          BTW, if you have not read Ayn Rand, you’re really missing something great in life. Look up her books if you have time.

          @ Satyajit: Point taken & i apologize if my comment has hurt your sentiments. But you evaded answering my question. 🙂

          • Gaurav Nigam Says:

            @Dear Arnab,

            It was good that this time you read what I wrote before making your comments.
            Surely, I will search for Ayn Rand and read. But can comment over the greatness I missed only after READING:)

            enjoy!

          • Satyajeet Shukla Says:

            Dear Arnab,

            I think you need to update your knowledge, Bharat is also known as भारत गणराज्य Bhārat Gaṇarājya. These are some of the official name.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_names_of_India

            Probably this will enlighten you further.

            I do not see much clash between these identities. Anyways we have a different world view. The Hindu Identity is all about freedom, various philosophical school’s of thought. Some of these schools are agnostic and atheistic also. Anyways God or No God we have place for all of them. It goes beyond Tolerance, its about creating a world order of mutual respect.

            सर्वे भवन्तु सुखिनः। सर्वे सन्तु निरामयाः। सर्वे भद्राणि पश्यन्तु। मा कश्चित् दुःख भाग्भवेत्॥

            Jai Ram Ji Ki.

            • manasij Says:

              does that mean I am a hindu atheist?
              what a pathetic concept !!!!!!

            • Arnab Says:

              Then why not call it a Human Identity instead of a Hindu Identity? What happened in the name of Hinduism on 6th December, 1992 was definitely not about freedom and certainly not about tolerance. It seems that the so called Hindu leaders of today don’t have any place for people with different faiths & beliefs.
              Also, aren’t you really contradicting yourself? You earlier mentioned that you are a jingoist who thinks about Hindus. Ohh, I get it, you think the only people worth calling humans are Hindus!

              • manasij Says:

                good point Arnab….I believe Satyajeet and his kinds do believe that by heart……

              • Satyajeet Shukla Says:

                Probably you do not understand your own sarcasm. I am a Jingoist 😀

                My world order has place for every one, but the catch is they must also have place for me. Kill the infidals, Jihad is the only way, There is only one allah, There are two worlds, Darul Herb and Darul Islam. Darul Herb needs to be converted to Darul Islam. Jesus is the only son of God. Why we need a conversion Business? Convert people by crooked means.

                Looks as if the Intelligentsia is out of sink with the ground realities. Listen to the ranting of local mullah, you will find a continuous subdued ranting for a war cry. Where is the peace? Where do all the Animal rights activist go on the day of Bakri- ied? Those poor animals are slowly killed by slitting the throat. Can there be no Human way except the Halal way followed in 6th century. Even the educated Muslims insists on Halal.

                Ah .. being an ostrich is no way going to help. Bengal will become another Bangladesh. You may again tag me, but the fact will remain.

                I may be a whistle blower who is highlighting the issues. I do not want anyone to be against Muslims, but we must not skirt the issues.

                Today only Britain officially recognized the ancient religion of Pagans, Droitism – which was prevalent in Britain before the advent of Christianity. Droits were hunted and killed by the Roman War machine. Roman War machine was responsible for the spread of Xtianity in Britain and Europe.

                Yes mansij you can be a Hindu. The term Hindu has a genesis in the river Sindhu and has a more cultural and civilizational aspect. Even the supreme-court defines it that way.

                Jai Ram Ji Ki.

        • Satyajeet Shukla Says:

          Alas Harivansh Rai Bachhan was a non drinker. Anyways what about your House? 😀

  21. Tamoghno Says:

    Manasij your article was insightful. Let’s look at some of the lighter aspects. It inspires me to write ….for one it can get me some attention and if I play the cards right from here on, who knows might just some day make it to that structure (it’s got some domes as well) which is host to over 500 hundred elite gentlemen, more than 300 of whom have at least 20 legal cases of criminal nature pending in courts. False charges you see …. and the courts got larger issues to deal with, like the one we are discussing here ……..

    Personally the verdict meant a lot to me. The government’s crack down on bulk sms-es meant Titan could not give me that once in a life time offer (in these difficult times) nor could our local mall offer me 17 t-shirts FREE just for buying a pair of boxers ……. It also meant that all deadlines that I couldn’t meet this week (at work or otherwise) could be blamed on the 4 hrs we lost making sense of the verdict. But then I guess 4 hrs is quite small when we consider that evidences gathered over 2-3 millenniums that have been placed before the 3 wise men in court. To call the judgment “Historic” would be an understatement … we are dealing with none less than Ram here.

    Finally on to the most critical question ….. do I think this was a good judgment? I am still not sure what the judgment was, not that I understand the issue in the first place. See that’s the fun of democracy, you may have something to say about the solution, even if you do not understand the issue. Ok onto why I did not understand the judgement …. coz it was broken down for me by a bunch of lawyers, and off course I do not trust liars (read: lawyers) …. and you too should not even if you are a lawyer yourself. Watching the proceedings simultaneously on 15 News Channels, I realized once again that in a room full of Black Coats, the only thing you can never hear is the truth ……..

    There are more ideas, perspectives that I have ….. but I keep those to myself, lest they track down my IP and blame me squarely for starting a riot ….. But one person who should have been a part of all this is definitely Dan Brown. That would have been enough fodder for a booked titled ….. (Ok I leave that open for comments)

    • manasij Says:

      you said it, we need a Dan Brown to make a hilarious best seller out of this car wreck of a situation 🙂

  22. Satyajeet Shukla Says:

    Probably you do not understand your own sarcasm. I am a Jingoist

    My world order has place for every one, but the catch is they must also have place for me. Kill the infidals, Jihad is the only way, There is only one allah, There are two worlds, Darul Herb and Darul Islam. Darul Herb needs to be converted to Darul Islam. Jesus is the only son of God. Why we need a conversion Business? Convert people by crooked means.

    Looks as if the Intelligentsia is out of sink with the ground realities. Listen to the ranting of local mullah, you will find a continuous subdued ranting for a war cry. Where is the peace? Where do all the Animal rights activist go on the day of Bakri- ied? Those poor animals are slowly killed by slitting the throat. Can there be no Human way except the Halal way followed in 6th century. Even the educated Muslims insists on Halal.

    Ah .. being an ostrich is no way going to help. Bengal will become another Bangladesh. You may again tag me, but the fact will remain.

    I may be a whistle blower who is highlighting the issues. I do not want anyone to be against Muslims, but we must not skirt the issues.

    Today only Britain officially recognized the ancient religion of Pagans, Droitism – which was prevalent in Britain before the advent of Christianity. Droits were hunted and killed by the Roman War machine. Roman War machine was responsible for the spread of Xtianity in Britain and Europe.

    Yes mansij you can be a Hindu. The term Hindu has a genesis in the river Sindhu and has a more cultural and civilizational aspect. Even the supreme-court defines it that way.

    Note : My reply was difficult to read in the above thread, so I am reproducing again.

    Jai Ram Ji Ki.

    • manasij Says:

      I find no diff in the hardliner comments of mullahs and RSS+BJP+ShivSena etc
      I make no distinctions between hardliners and rightists of any side
      Our country can not be led by jingoistic tendencies and we must not allow these inflammatory fringes to dictate terms
      Ours is a secular democracy and we must save it from these evils

      • Arnab Says:

        @ Manasij: completely agree 🙂
        @ Satyajit: If your world order has place for everyone, then, by definition, it must have a place for hardliners, as well as softliners, of all disciplines. Yet you support one section of the hardliners (Hindus) and want to get rid of the rest (non-Hindus). So stop fooling yourself. Your philosophy has place for only those who agree with you.

        • Satyajeet Shukla Says:

          @Arnab
          So you want Hindu’s to be ostrich, deny whats happening in and around us.

          Anyways, there is some thing really wrong, If RSS walah highlights it then he become’s a Hardliner. Then who will highlight these issues, Marxist. They are busy with there vote bank. You do not still understand by the Iran experiment, where the Muslims took help of Comrades to capture power, and as soon as Ayotollah Khomaini came to power he ordered the execution of commies.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhollah_Khomeini

          Anyways you can boast yourself and stay in your self-righteous cocoon. The future is in its womb, only the time will tell…..

          Jai Ram Ji Ki.

          • manasij Says:

            Dear Satyajeet,

            I used to be a member of debating society and took lessons about how to put my ideas in a debate.

            There are 4 important things that I feel obliged to pass on to you and my fellow readers.

            1. Remain Topical: In your various posts in this blog you have mentioned everything (Iran, Khomeini, Bangladesh, Varanasi, Muslim Population, Druids….) pretty much everything except String theory….. Please remain topical. Whilst you can give references they have to remain extremely relevant and to the point. This blog is not about a general perception on religious views and the larger world view. So, it would be best in your interest to stick to the topic. I consider most of your comments are irrelevant and they are a part of a different debate and not the one we are in.

            2. Evidence and Corroboration: Please do not produce non authentic sources of INFORMATION as EVIDENCE. Wikipedia and other internet sources that you have cited are information sources and NOT authentic evidences. Please understand this difference.

            3. View Subscription: I have seen you disregard noted historians’ and scholars’ views as they are not on the same ideological sides as you are. Now, please understand that an academic work can only be consider polar if and only if the person/group producing it are member(s) of a polarity and the polar institution does subscribe the view as its guiding exponent. This is why reports from India about Kashmir are not considered much valuable as India believes Kasmir is a part of its sovereign territory. Likewise, for an historian X’s academic work to would be considered polar if X is a member of organization Y and the organization Y ratifies the view of X’s work in any of its statutory documentation.

            4. No Personal Attack: Please refrain from personal attacks. This is not a personal issue and therefore satirical comments and vitriolic language is best avoided. In a debate these are considered -ve traits and we used to get -ve points for this offense (it is called move to strike in technical debate language)

            Based on these, all your last 4-5 posts are irrelevant to the topic and not in the debating fraternity’s sportsmanship.
            Please feel free to comment but please be aware of these facts.

            @Gaurav: You may also benefit from these points a lot.

            • Satyajeet Shukla Says:

              Point taken.

              Anyways, nothing on this virtual world can be considered authentic.
              I know about the wiki and its authenticity. Still Wiki is one of the best source of information.

              Irfan Habeeb is a party to the dispute and by your own logic his version can not be taken for the final truth. Furthermore there are loopholes in whatever he is saying. I had pointed at-least one.

              Regarding RSS you are free to have your opinion but the vitriolic attack on a nationalistic organisation at times unsettles me. RSS is not against Muslims.

              Yes its good that Muslim Back-lash has not happened, but closely look at all the events in the recent history, you will find out that, its only because, Hindu’s can also retaliate.

              I do not know if you know about the riots in Barelli following the last Holi. Its not an old incident. FYI it happened just 6 months back.

              http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Riots-flare-again-in-Bareilly-after-leader-Tauqirs-release/articleshow/5673661.cms

              Even the media can not be considered authentic at times, when it does selective reporting.

              Have you heard the RSS chief an the eve of verdict, he had specifically asked people to maintain calm.

              Jai Ram Ji Ki.

        • Gaurav Nigam Says:

          @Manasij,

          Thanks but no thanks!
          I think you require more lessons on this rather than any of us. Also, just putting forward these points with no authentic source other than saying you you were member of some debating society. This point of your contradict your point#3. Your promotion(i.e., +1 to that Ashish) to some insensible humor by anonymous resulted to some wayward discussion. I accept it, but it was your fault.

          Manasij is easy to teach lessons. But, better make sure you too follow them by heart.

          No hard feelings please!

          Regards

          • Gaurav Nigam Says:

            Correction: Please read point#3 as point#2

          • Gaurav Nigam Says:

            Also, I can voluntarily help to you find out citations from your posting on this blogs where you have been continuously contradicted your learned lessons in past.

            PS: Learning lessons is useless unless you apply them.

            Regards.

          • manasij Says:

            +1 was for the logic deduction in Ashish’s post and not for the humor (or the lack of it).
            You made the same comprehension mistake in understanding “no contest” scenarios.
            Debating rules are not gospels and therefore I said “use your discretion”. Make use of this pointer.
            We are discussing Ayodhya verdict here and NOT some personal scores. Post if you have anything topical to say and not to nitpick.
            And please read carefully before jumping on your personal attack agenda.

          • Gaurav Nigam Says:

            1. If +1 was for that logic than I too gave the logic for making everybody explain how this could be speculation. So I take back my words “I accept” back. So I’m clean based on your logic for +1. But, why didn’t you asked anonymous(logic about watching girl) and Arnab(about brothel) to so stop writing such stuff. Ohhh I got it, ofcource they were supporting your points, so what ever they speak is ethical. What a shame????

            2. Well, I was on agenda and at no point to make some personal attacks. Reason why you feel is that those were personal attacks as you always feel that this is not discussion but a debate and you wan’t to win it at any cost, either you have to give base less fact like “godhra were state supported riots”, even before court could give its decision.

            Please work on your lesson learned in past. Might me over of period of time you write some better replies.

  23. Anonymous Says:

    DISCLAIMER – comments below are just my thoughts and have no intention to hurt anyone’s feelings, if you object any of the word or statement please ignore this and take it as unintentional 🙂

    Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities

    Going through all the comments, I am forced to get into this discussion. From the comments I think we are discussing following points :-

    1. Honorable court’s decision
    2. Possible solutions
    3. and Atheism

    let me first come to point 3 – by going through the blog and comments, I agree with Manasij. His blog title which came into discussion by my friend Gaurav has been misinterpreted. The Blog title says “Ayodhya Verdict: An Atheist’s View”. as per my understanding this blog gives a picture of a scenario where the author is neither Hindu Nor Muslim.

    Few days before, I came across a comment – “no strong irrational reactions!!! i guess my country is finally a mature democracy and there is still hope for the nation …. “. I strongly oppose this and agree here again with Manasij that had this been a decision against majority, then we would have definitely seen a strong irrational reaction as i mentioned in my first comment that these kinds of issues are politically supported and created.

    Why we want to prove that we are “Atheist” or “Theist”. it’s an individual’s opinion and has freedom to express his thoughts. I don’t know what I am, but let me ask one question here – have u ever seen or heard of a person who prays daily, goes to temple/masjid but do all things which are against society.. Will you call that person a “theist”??
    Believe me or not but going to a temple is something which for some people is to show that they are “theist”.. now again I will ask everyone that what difference will it make to a common men if whatever is constructed on ground zero ??? Is it some ego hidden within us?? Sitting in an AC room with a laptop or blackberry and putting comments on blog or face book is very easy but facing the reality and working on ground zero is not everyone’s job.

    When something happens, we all just go ahead and put comments on different social networking sites.. tell me how many of you are aware of what’s happening in Nitahri Kand.. Just around Ayodhya verdict, Sunil kohli was given death sentence on third case. Why don’t we put comments about this and put our voice that after doing such horrible acts both of the accused are still alive????

    Answer to my question is because we forget things with time and go with what’s happening and on demand.. Really sad to see this and yes I am also a part of this as I am also a human being like all of you.

    I thought of writing a long comment and putting my comments on everyone’s view but while writing I am really feeling sad and would like to end it here and lastly as per me the act performed on 6th December’ 1992 was definitely something which was against humanity.

    • manasij Says:

      Dear Anonymous,
      Your explanation for the atheism was elegant. Thanks for it.
      However I can not agree with you on the notion of “why bother what gets erected there”.
      This is because of 2 major reasons:

      1. Weakening India’s legal System: The way the evidence exponents have been used in the court verdict we are headed towards a pretty dark tomorrow when faith and belief and matters of mythology start becoming exhibits of evidence. Plus by bowing to a majoritarian sentiment the justice system has further maligned itself. As you know this verdict would be potentially used by many other court cases, we are looking at becoming an incoherent medieval justice system. This dilution of judiciary is NOT acceptable in a secular democracy.

      2. Secularism’s Defeat: Secularism means equal treatment of subjects by the law. It does not mean that you need to simply do a one-third mathematical divide and lay the problem to rest. Secularism does not need to look a mathematician for the least. It is about the truth that must prevail. The truth on 1949 was it was a mosque and vandals placed idols inside it. In case the plaintiffs (hindus) were unable to provide evidence for their claim on the property, it is a simple case in favor of defendants (sunni waqf board). We chose to tread 500 yras back an got all messed up. This majority backlash fearing verdict is a defeat of Indian Secularism.

    • Arnab Says:

      Good explanation of Atheism. But I don’t think that even if the verdict had gone against the Hindus, there would have been violence. Because secular violence is no longer in the BJP’s best interests and they are starting to realize that. That’s why they have kept Varun Gandhi & Narendra Modi out of the Bihar campaign.

      • Anonymous Says:

        @Arnab – maybe you are right, but I feel situation would have been different if verdict has gone against majority. the hardcore group called “Sangh” can do anything and everything on the name of “Ram”. after all we all know the remote control’s are very powerful 🙂

        • manasij Says:

          sure for that…..

        • ngaurav2005 Says:

          @Ashish Bhatia

          Well it seem that you are good at speculation. But on lighter note, what all has happened didn’t sparked any more riots. I’m happy because of this and not due to fact that decision went in favor or against any community.

          Thanks God!

          • manasij Says:

            then what do u attribute it to?
            collective maturity?

            • Gaurav Nigam Says:

              You can term it any thing as per convenience but it was (mature-maturing)better public reaction compare to what happened in ’47, ’92, godhra etc.

              Thank God!

              • manasij Says:

                Gaurav,
                What happened in Gujrat was not a “public reaction”. It was a well organized genocide to which state was a participant.
                92 was again not a “public reaction”, it was a criminal conspiracy to demolish the historical mosque.
                BTW, these two aforementioned events were majoritarian atrocities,
                We escaped that this time because the verdict is a majoritarian one.
                That much for our maturity!

                • Satyajeet Shukla Says:

                  What happened to Taslima/What happened at Godhera/ Mumbai Bonb Blast/Hunderedsof other Blastsin Varanasi / Jaipur/ Ahemdabad/ Bangalore / Kashmir / Delhi.They are terrorist in the nameof Allah.What aboutNandigram / Sindhur/ I do not see your analysis aboutthese.

              • Gaurav Nigam Says:

                @Manasij: I would request for your kind permission to reply after saying Gnite as I haven’t seen your reply to this comment

                ‘Godhra: Court has still to prove whether is was state sponsored or not but you have already given your decision. Hats off

                ’92: I was talking about riots after demolition of masajid.

                ’47????

                Well you maneuver facts as per your whims and fancies. Keep doing it as every one of us love would love to laugh atleast once a day.

                Ofcorce who can write better title than you: “Ayodhya Verdict: Atheist View”…haha :-).

                My last laugh for the day. Final gnite.

        • Gaurav Nigam Says:

          @Ashish Bhatia

          Well it seem that you are good at speculation. But on lighter note, what all has happened didn’t sparked any more riots. I’m happy because of this and not due to fact that decision went in favor or against any community.

          Thanks God!

          • Anonymous Says:

            @ Gaurav – Its not about speculations. some things are of obvious nature.. on a lighter side if a girl passes by and someone says that Ashish will see her.. that would not be a speculation that would be something obvious..

            So coming back to your point that there were no riots.. everyone here is happy for that as no one wants blood shed of innocent people and thats only because of the courts decision in favor of majority.

            By saying that “I’m happy because of this and not due to fact that decision went in favor or against any community” you are somehow trying to say that indeed decision was in favor of majority.. and now trying to escape from accepting that yes we are still not mature enough… 🙂

          • Gaurav Nigam Says:

            @Anonymous=Ashish,

            1. May be watching a girl is obvious, but could be speculation as well if Ashish is a gay. And no one knows about your sexual orientation.

            2. Not everyone is happy. Look unhappiness is what resulted this blog. Some people still want to shed blood of innocents.

            3. I echo again…”I’m happy” for reasons I quoted above. Our indian society is maturing, though baby steps, but it is progressing, so I appreciate. Well, using topsy, turvy & curly language can’t deny this fact.

            @Manasij: Don’t forget to do -(minus)1. Ofcource you won’t second with me. LOL…

            • Ashish Says:

              Gaurav –

              1. you are right brother, but again you are going into speculations for which u blamed me…you are speculating that Ashish is gay.. see things from a right and positive view.
              and regarding knowing my sexual orientations, please let me know if you are interested in knowing in detail…. lol..

              2. No comments

              3. again you are speculating that society is maturing, but HOW, you are not able to answer. again pressing on the same phrase of decision being made in favor of majority which has give an illusion that society is maturing..

              • manasij Says:

                Asish and Gaurav,
                Please remain topical. Your sexual preferences are not a matter of concern for most of us.
                I do not believe in comment moderation as I believe in freedom of expression so use your discretion.
                @Gaurav: Please read my reply to Satyajeet about evidence and corroboration to understand how to avoid speculative non-objective predicate logic to bring forth your point of view.

  24. Satyajeet Shukla Says:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/8036952/Druidry-recognised-as-religion-in-Britain-for-first-time.html

    Small correction, its Druid / Druidry.

    Jai Ram Ji Ki.

  25. Sujash Das Says:

    It is again a good article from you Mansij.
    But HC did not consider mythology as history but the verdict says that it was a religious belief of the Hindus that Ram was born at that site. So HC considered the religious belief and not mythology as history.

    • manasij Says:

      Sujash,
      At least mythology is still a documented artifact, belief and faith is completely amorphous.
      By accepting these as evidence exponents we have diluted the judiciary in a big way and that is unacceptable.

  26. Saibal Chatterjee Says:

    Manasij & others who have put an effort to prove their point, I have always found that the Government has aways used a Band-aid solutation to every problem that has come up in any field. I am yet to see a proper solution to any problem that the gov had to tackle. The Mandir-Masjid problem is no exceptation.

  27. priyank Says:

    phew! Classic Religion Debate…Manasij..i have a bottle of scotch with your name on it. 🙂

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